Jewish Genealogy in Argentina Archives

POST 129: THE UNSUCCESSFUL QUEST TO TRACK DOWN DR. ERICH BRUCK IN ARGENTINA

Note: In this post I talk about the failed search for my first cousin twice removed Dr. Erich Bruck whom I have tantalizing evidence wound up in the Argentinian part of Tierra del Fuego. I discuss the proof I obtained in confirming that a similarly named Dr. Enrik Bruck who is buried in Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña, a town more than 2,300 miles away from Tierra del Fuego, is not my distant cousin.

POST 62, POSTSCRIPT: THE FAR-REACHING SEARCH FOR MY FATHER’S FIRST COUSIN, HEINZ LUDWIG BERLINER—FURTHER PROOF OF HEINZ’S EXISTENCE

POST 113: CHIUNE SUGIHARA, JAPANESE IMPERIAL CONSUL IN LITHUANIA DURING WWII, “RIGHTEOUS AMONG THE NATIONS”

Dr. Erich Bruck is my first cousin twice removed born in Ratibor, Germany [today: Racibórz, Poland], same town as my father Dr. Otto Bruck, on the 31^st of August 1865. I have evidence of his birth from the Family History Library’s Microfilm Roll 1184449 for Jewish births in Ratibor. (Figure 1) He was one of 14 or 15 children born to my great-granduncle- and -grandaunt, Oskar Bruck (1831-1892) and Mathilde Bruck née Preiss. At the tail end of Post 113, I included a table with the available vital statistics on these children. Astonishingly, to date, I’ve been unable to find a single living descendant for any of these offspring.

Figure 1. Birth register listing from the Family History Library’s Microfilm Number 1184449 for Erich Bruck showing his parents were Oscar Bruck and Mathilde née Preiss and that he was born on the 31st of August 1865

Unlike some of his siblings who perished in the Holocaust, Erich is believed to have survived. As briefly mentioned in Post 113, a tantalizing clue as to Erich’s fate was found in the “Pinkus Family Collection 1500s-1994, 1725-1994” archived at the Leo Baeck Institute. On the Oskar Bruck-Mathilde Preiss family page, names and some vital data on 12 of their 14 or 15 “kinder,” children, can be found, including information on Dr. Erich Bruck. (Figure 2) It confirms he was born on the 31^st of August 1865 in Ratibor, was a doctor in Argentina, and emigrated to “Feuerlandinseln,” Tierra del Fuego Islands in the 19^th century. Beyond the fact this is an unusual place for an individual to have emigrated to, this is the closest I’ve been to finding a Jewish ancestor in Antarctica, still more than 2,300 miles away, the only continent where my family’s diaspora has not yet taken me.

Figure 2. Page from the “Pinkus Family Collection 1500s-1994, 1725-1994” archived at the Leo Baeck Institute on the Oskar Bruck-Mathilde Preiss family with vital data on 12 of their 14 or 15 children, including Erich Bruck; this is the source for the information that Erich Bruck was a doctor and emigrated to Tierra del Fuego, Argentina

Some brief geography. Tierra del Fuego, Spanish for “Land of the Fire,” is an archipelago off the southernmost tip of the South American mainland, across the Strait of Magellan. The archipelago consists of the main island, Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, with an area of 18,572 sq. mi. (48,100 km2), and a group of many islands, including Cape Horn and Diego Ramírez Islands. Tierra del Fuego is divided between Chile and Argentina, with the latter controlling the eastern half of the main island and the former the western half plus the islands south of Beagle Channel and the southernmost islands. Ushuaia is the capital of Tierra del Fuego, with a population of nearly 80,000 and claims the title of the world’s southernmost city. The family page from the Pinkus Family Collection makes it clear that Dr. Erich Bruck was a physician in Argentina, not in Chile.

My quest to discover what may have happened to Dr. Erich Bruck has been ongoing for several years interrupted by investigations into other ancestors. Obviously aware of an Argentinian connection, in 2021 I contacted the “Asociación de Genealogía Judía de Argentina (AGJA),” the Jewish Genealogical Society of Argentina, asking whether they or another genealogical association or group could provide any information about my distant cousin. I received a prompt response from a Ms. Estela Rappaportt (Figure 3) referring me to a Facebook group located in the Ushuaia community of Tierra del Fuego. I contacted them but never received a reply.

Figure 3. Ms. Estela Rappaportt from the “Asociación de Genealogía Judía de Argentina (AGJA),” the Jewish Genealogical Society of Argentina

More intriguingly, Estela mentioned there is a tomb in the province of Chaco in Argentina, in the city of Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña, of an Enrik Bruck, who died there on 31^st of May 1931. Given that Erich Bruck was born in 1865, the age of this individual at death at least seemed like a plausible match. Moreover, I thought his forename might well have been changed to Enrik in Spanish. Ignoring the fact that Tierra del Fuego and Sáenz Peña in Chaco Province are more than 2,300 miles apart (Figure 4), I became obsessed with the notion that my distant relative is interred there. How Erich Bruck might have wound up in Sáenz Peña after living in Tierra del Fuego was an afterthought.

Figure 4. Generalized map showing the distance between Tierra del Fuego and Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña where Dr. Enrik Bruck is buried is more than 2,300 miles

Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña in Chaco Province is under 700 miles from Buenos Aires (Figure 5), and has a population of 83,000 people, mostly descendants of settlers from Spain, Italy, Russia, Poland, then-Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, and Ukraine, as well as Jewish families from elsewhere in Argentina. Sáenz Peña was founded in 1912 and has developed as a commercial and industrial center serving the surrounding agricultural region of the Gran Chaco plains. In 1945, the Jewish population numbered around 200 families, though today fewer than ten Jewish families remain.

Figure 5. Generalized map showing the distance between Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña and Buenos Aires is less than 700 miles

With Jews having lived in and around Sáenz Peña, it stands to reason there would be a Jewish cemetery. And, in fact, I learned about Saenz Peña’s “El Cementerio Judio,” a Jewish cemetery dating from 1920 with 120 graves, formerly called “Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña Cementerio.” The information about this Jewish cemetery was derived from the International Jewish Cemetery Project, which is a volunteer, cooperative effort of the International Association of Jewish Genealogical Societies and JewishGen, Inc.’s “JewishGen Online Worldwide Burial Registry” or “JOWBR” which seeks to identify Jewish burial sites and interments throughout the world.

I tried contacting the Sáenz Peña’s Ayuntamiento, the city’s town hall, but never received a response. I tried working through a friend at the Jewish Genealogical Society of Los Angeles and her Rabbi to establish a local contact but this too failed. I even tried having South American relatives call the Jewish cemetery’s caretaker, all to no avail. Because information on the International Jewish Cemetery Project regarding gaining entry to the cemetery implied the process was rather informal (Figure 6), I set the issue aside for future consideration. Nonetheless, I remained stubbornly convinced that my ancestor was interred in the Jewish cemetery in Saenz Peña and had eventually intended to go on a letter-writing campaign to confirm this.

Figure 6. Information about the Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña’s “El Cementerio Judío” from the International Jewish Cemetery Project

Let me briefly digress. Like most avid genealogists, I have a “bin” of unresolved genealogical questions, quests if you will. In Post 62 and Post 62, Postscript, I discussed my father’s first cousin, Heinz Ludwig Berliner, who, like Erich Bruck and my father, was born in Ratibor; “Berliner,” incidentally, was my paternal grandmother’s maiden name. Hearsay from Heinz’s branch of the family suggests he committed suicide in 1948, place unknown.

Heinz’s last known location is in Bolivia. A brief reference in MyHeritage stated he wound up there. In 2019, I contacted the Jewish synagogue in La Paz, the Circulo Israelita de Bolivia, hoping they might have immigration or other records on Heinz, which they do not. At the time, I mistakenly concluded the theater where Heinz had performed under his stage name “Enry Berloc,” the “Teatro Municipal,” was in Buenos Aires rather than in La Paz (Figure 7); as a result the Circulo referred me to the AMIA in Argentina, the central institution of the country’s Jewish community. AMIA, in turn, directed me to the “Asociación de Genealogía Judía de Argentina (AGJA),” which is how I encountered Ms. Rappaportt.

Figure 7. Playbill from the “Teatro Municipal” I originally thought was located in Buenos Aires for a performance my distant cousin Heinz Ludwig Berliner starred in, using his stage name “Enry Berloc”; it turns out the Teatro Municipal is located in La Paz, Bolivia

My contact with the Circulo Israelita de Bolivia was not for naught, however, as I will explain in another postscript to Post 62.

Getting back on track. A recent email from the Circulo Israelita de Bolivia reminded me I had never connected with Saenz Peña’s El Cementerio Judio, so I decided to again contact Ms. Rappaportt from AGJA asking her who I should write to in Saenz Peña about Enrik Bruck. Estela sent me the name and email of the President of the Kehilá or village of Sáenz Peña, but then almost immediately sent me a photo of Enrik Bruck’s headstone. (Figure 8) To say I was flabbergasted would be an understatement given that I’d been looking for such information for years.

Figure 8. Photo of Enrik Bruck’s headstone from the “Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña Cementerio” sent to me by Ms. Estela Rappaport

While I never asked Estela where she obtained the photo, I eventually located it on my own on the JOWBR website. I have literally looked at hundreds of burial registry records on JOWBR’s website (Figures 9a-b), and this is the first time I’ve ever seen one with a picture of the individual’s gravestone, so I consider myself fortunate to have obtained this image without going down more rabbit trails.

Figure 9a. Page from the “JewishGen Online Worldwide Burial Registry” or “JOWBR” with information on the “Presidencia Roque Sáenz Peña Cementerio”

Figure 9b. Page from the “JewishGen Online Worldwide Burial Registry” or “JOWBR” with the photo of Enrik Bruck’s headstone

At first glance, Enrik’s tombstone appears unreadable but enlarging and zeroing in on the text I realized that a lot of information was decipherable. (Figure 10)

Figure 10. Closeup of (H)ENRIC BRUCK’s headstone showing detailed information

Below is what I managed to construe:

DOCTOR

O.E.P.

(H)ENRIK BRUCK

NACIO EN ALBA JULIA (born in Alba Iulia)

EL 16 DE DICIEMBRE xxxx (the 16^th of December xxxx)

FALLECIO EL 31 DE Mxxxx (passed away the 31^st of xxx (May according to JewishGen))

DE MUERTE PE (of death xx)

Armed with what seemed like rather scant details, I first turned to Google to learn where “Alba Julia” is located. I discovered it is in Transylvania, the historical and cultural region in Central-Eastern Europe, that now encompasses central Romania. Alba Iulia, as it is called, was the seat of residence of the princes of Transylvania in the 16^th and 17^th centuries, and for several centuries was administered by Hungary. In the 17^th century there were about 100 Jews living in Alba Iulia, and by 1930, 1,558 out of 12,282 people living there were Jewish. By 1941, all Jewish community property had been confiscated, and the men seized for forced labor. The Jewish population peaked in 1947 at over 2,000, but by the beginning of the 21^st century, the Jewish population in Alba Iulia, as well as in the rest of Romania, was very small.

Next, I searched in ancestry for Enrik Bruck in Alba Iulia, and surprisingly found two births registers listing a Henrik Brück, with an umlaut over the “u,” born there on the 16^th of December 1888. (Figures 11a-c) Since the place and day of birth match the information on the headstone located in Saenz Peña, I am certain the individual interred there is Dr. Henrik Brück.

Figure 11a. Cover page for birth register listing for Henrik Brück showing he was born on the 16th of December 1888 in Alba Iulia, Romania

Figure 11b. Version 1 of birth register listing for Henrik Brück showing he was born on the 16th of December 1888 in Alba Iulia, Romania

Figure 11c. Version 2 of birth register listing for Henrik Brück showing he was born on the 16th of December 1888 in Alba Iulia, Romania

While disappointed so far not to have tracked down my distant cousin Dr. Erich Bruck in Argentina, I am now certain he is not interred in Sáenz Peña. Ms. Rappaportt, who has relatives in Ushuaia, the capital of Tierra del Fuego, tells me there is no Jewish cemetery there. An online search of the cemetery records in Ushuaia and Río Grande, Tierra del Fuego’s two largest cities, show no Brucks interred there. So, while the question of where Erich Bruck wound up remains unresolved, I was finally able to establish the identity and origin of the Brück who lies in Sáenz Peña.

REFERENCE

Nimcowicz, Diane. Jewish Genealogical Research in Argentina. Arhttps://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/argentina.htmlgentina

POST 58: FINDING THERESE “THUSSY” SANDLER NÉE PAULY, MY GREAT-GREAT-UNCLE AND AUNT’S YOUNGEST CHILD

Note: In this post, I discuss what I’ve been unable to discover about the fate of Therese “Thussy” Sandler née Pauly, the youngest of my great-great-uncle and aunt Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s children, and how I came upon this information.

Figure 1a. Therese “Thussy” Pauly (1885-1969) ca. 1890

Figure 1b. Therese “Thussy” Pauly (1885-1969) ca. 1890

Figure 1c. Therese “Thussy” Pauly (1885-1969) ca. 1895

Figure 1d. Therese “Thussy” Pauly (1885-1969) on her sister Maria’s wedding day, the 30th of September 1901

In recent posts, I’ve systematically presented what I’ve been able to learn about my great-great-uncle and aunt Dr. Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s nine children, siblings who would effectively be my first cousins twice-removed. The destiny of the last of Dr. Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s children, Therese Charlotte Thusnelda “Thussy” Pauly (Figures 1a-d), would likely have remained shrouded in mystery if not for an email I received through my Blog in April 2019, from Therese’s grandson and great-grandson, Pedro Sandler (Figure 2) and Daniel Alejandro Sandler. This contact opened a portal to uncovering some new and somewhat surprising information.

Figure 2. Therese Pauly’s grandson, Pedro Sandler (b. 1949-living)

Andi Pauly, one of Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s great-grandchildren, has been, as I’ve explained in recent posts, the source of much of the information and visual images I’ve obtained on his grandfather Wilhelm “Willy” Pauly and his eight sisters. In many instances, I’ve been able to supplement what Andi’s provided by accessing historic documents and data on ancestry.com; the Yad Vashem Victims’ database; and residential registration cards for Posen, Germany [today: Poznan, Poland], the town where Josef and Rosalie Pauly lived and where all nine of their children were born. Naturally, this is where I began my investigation into Therese Pauly.

Figure 3. Passenger manifest with Ernst and Therese Sandler’s names showing they departed London bound for Buenos Aires on the 21st of August 1937

Figure 4. Passenger manifest with Ernst and Therese Sandler’s names showing they returned to London from La Plata, Argentina on the 18th of November 1937

In ancestry.com, I discovered a passenger manifest listing Therese’s name and that of her husband, Ernst Sandler, showing that on the 21st of August 1937, they travelled from London on a ship bound for Buenos Aires, Argentina. (Figure 3) Another passenger manifest shows them returning from Argentina bound for London on the 18th of November 1937 (Figure 4), thus, slightly less than three months later. Given the increasingly restrictive environment German Jews were confronted by on account of the Nuremburg Laws, I was surprised they returned to Europe. Initially, I thought they might have stayed in England, but I found Ernst Sandler, a retired judge, listed almost continuously from 1919 through 1937 in Berlin Address books (Figure 5), suggesting they had in fact returned to Berlin.

Figure 5. Page from 1937 Berlin Phone Directory with Ernst Sandler’s listing him as a retired judge residing in the Charlottenburg Borough, marking the last year in which he is shown living in Berlin

Figure 6. Passenger manifest with Ernst and Therese Sandler’s names showing they departed London once again bound for Buenos Aires on the 24th of September 1938

I found a third passenger manifest for Ernst and Therese Sandler, dated the 24th of September 1938, again departing London by ship bound for Buenos Aires, Argentina (Figure 6), presumably for good this time. This indicated the Sandlers had survived the Holocaust, and a quick check of Yad Vashem, confirmed they indeed were not listed as victims. The discovery of this 1938 passenger manifest is where the trail of the Sandlers ran cold.

I’ve explained in earlier posts I’ve had little success in unearthing ancestral documents for Jews who wound up in South America. As I’ve discovered for some European countries with a history of fascism, this is a function of present-day privacy concerns, though the paucity of ancestral records from South America may also reflect the likelihood this information has not yet been digitized.

The last place I was able to find “hard” evidence related to Ernst and Therese Sandler prior to being contacted by their descendants, Pedro and Daniel Sandler, was in the on-line Posen “Einwohnermeldekarte,” residential registration cards, or “Einwohnermeldezettel,” residential registration forms. To remind readers about these resident cards, in Post 45 I explained that each city historically kept track of their citizens using these forms. With recent changes in European laws, these police records must be digitized for individuals born at least 120 years ago and made available at no cost to all comers. Poznan, Poland, where Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s children were born, happens to be one of the jurisdictions where these police registration records have been automated and are available on-line.

Among the information found on the Einwohnermeldekarte for the Pauly children are their dates of birth; the names, dates and places of birth of their spouses; and the dates and places where they were married. In the previous Post 57 dealing with the sixth-born child of Josef and Rosalie Pauly, Maria Pohlmann née Pauly, I explained to readers it was on her residential registration card where I discovered she was married to Alexander Pohlmann on the 30th of September 1901. Similarly, the registration form revealed that Therese Pauly was married to Ernst Sandler on the 31st of August 1912 (Figure 7), in a place I could not initially read but later learned was Tremessen, located in the former German province of Posen and today known as Trzemeszno, Poland. Thus, the city registration forms are a tremendous source of data on vital statistics if they are available to readers for towns where their European relatives may once have lived.

Figure 7. “Posen Einwohnermeldekarte,” Posen residential registration card, showing Judge Ernst Sandler and Therese Pauly got married on the 31st of August 1912 in Tremessen, in the German province of Posen

My knowledge of Ernst and Therese Sandler’s fates might well have ended here had her great-grandson Daniel Alejandro Sandler not stumbled upon my Blog while doing research on multiple branches of his family tree and reached out to me in April 2019. In one of my posts, Danny found the same picture of his great-great-grandfather Dr. Josef Pauly that his father Pedro has a copy of. Danny and Pedro told me the family left Argentina in 1999 and relocated to Florida, although Pedro’s brother Enrique “Tito” Miguel moved to Israel in 1970.

It came as a surprise to learn that Ernst and Therese Sandler were practicing Jews. Regular readers may recall that in Post 56 I discussed Dr. Josef Pauly’s recollections of his life as he recorded them in 1894 on his 25th wedding anniversary. While open to interpretation, Josef’s memoirs seem to indicate he was a practicing Protestant though he may have been raised Jewish and converted at some point; direct evidence of Jewish conversions is extremely hard to come by as I explained in Post 38 with regard to my own father. There’s nothing in the memoir to indicate Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s household was Jewish, nor that any of their children practiced Jewish traditions. Nonetheless, as discussed in earlier posts, Josef and Rosalie’s descendants were considered “racially Jewish” in the eyes of the Nazis and many were thus murdered in the Holocaust. And, the fact remains that Therese and her husband were devout Jews who were forced to flee Germany in the 1930’s.

Armed with new names and dates following my discussions with Danny and Pedro Sandler, I returned to ancestry.com to track down a few more ancestral documents related to Therese’s descendants. (Figure 8) In recent weeks I’ve also updated my family tree, as well as obtained some vital statistics about the Sandler family and clarified some facts for this current Blog post.

Figure 8. 1964 Brazil Immigration card for one of Ernst and Therese Sandler’s grandsons, born “Ernesto,” referred to in Spanish as “Tito,” but identified on the immigration card as “Ernesto Miguel Sandler”; he moved to Israel in 1970

According to Pedro Sandler, Ernst and Therese Sandler’s two sons, Alfred and Heinz Sandler quit Berlin in 1933 and 1934, respectively, in favor of Holland. By 1937, the sons were in Argentina where, as previously mentioned, passenger manifests show their parents spent three months between August and November before returning to Germany; by then, the situation in Germany had so dramatically deteriorated for Jews, they decided to leave for good.

Figure 9a. Cover of Therese Sandler née Pauly’s “Reisepass,” or German passport, with the letter “J” for “Jude” or Jew and the date, the 9th of January 1939, handwritten

Figure 9b. Inside of Therese Sandler née Pauly’s “Reisepass” showing it was issued on the 29th of August 1938, in Berlin

Pedro sent me a copy of his grandmother’s Reisepass, essentially a German travel passport, issued on the 29th of August 1938 in Berlin (Figures 9a-b), indicating that Ernst and Therese Sandler were still in Berlin at the time. Again, as previously mentioned, a passenger manifest I discovered in ancestry.com confirms that Ernst and Therese Sandler departed London for Argentina less than a month later the 24th of September 1938. Their departure came none too soon, as Kristallnacht or the Night of Broken Glass, the Nazi pogrom against Jews, took place on the 9th and 10th of November 1938.

I notice one interesting thing on Therese Sandler’s Reisepass. According to historical information found on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum’s website, the Nazis’ Reich Ministry of the Interior invalidated all German passports held by Jews on October 5, 1938. Jews were required to surrender their old passports, which became valid again only after the letter “J” (for Jude or Jew) had been stamped on them. Readers will notice that on the cover of Therese’s passport, in the upper left-hand corner, is handwritten the red letter “J” with the date of 9th of January 1939. (Figure 9a) Presumably, this change in policy with respect to the invalidation and reissuance of passports to Jews with a stamped “J” was already anticipated at the time that Therese’s passport was issued in late August. The Sandlers escape from Germany came in the nick of time.

Figure 10a. Ernst and Therese Sandler amidst a group of 27 people in a photo likely taken in the 1910’s in Germany (Photo courtesy of Pedro Sandler)

Figure 10b. Close-up of Ernst Sandler (1870-1945) (Photo courtesy of Pedro Sandler)

Figure 10c. Close-up of Therese Sandler (1885-1969) (Photo courtesy of Pedro Sandler)

Pedro and Daniel Sandler shared one group picture of Ernst and Therese Sandler, taken in Germany, likely in the 1910’s. (Figures 10a-c) They also sent a photo montage that had once included individual pictures of all nine of Josef and Rosalie’s Pauly’s children as adolescents (Figure 11a-b); the images of Therese’s oldest sisters Anna and Paula have been lost.

Figure 11a. Photo montage of seven of Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s nine children as adolescents (Photo courtesy of Pedro Sandler)

Figure 11b. Close-up of Therese Pauly as a young girl (Photo courtesy of Pedro Sandler)

In updating my family tree, I asked Pedro for the dates and location of his grandparents’ deaths, which he graciously provided. Ernst Sandler passed away in Buenos Aires on the 20th of October 1945, while Therese died on the 25th of November 1969. Pedro mentioned in passing they are buried in the Jewish cemetery in Buenos Aires called “Cementerio Israelita de la Tablada.” Thinking I might find a photo of their headstone online, I Googled the cemetery’s website; while I was unsuccessful finding such a photo, I stumbled upon a database of names listing people interred in the various cemeteries across Argentina (Figures 12a-b), often including birth and death dates. As regular readers know, I frequently bemoan the lack of ancestral data available for South American countries, so it came as a pleasant surprise to come across this index specifically for Argentina, a frequent destination for Jews escaping Nazi Germany. With respect to the Sandlers interred in Argentina that Pedro had told me about, I was able to locate five of his relatives, including Ernst and Therese Sandler. (Figures 13a-b) A brief footnote. In Argentina, unlike many other South American and Spanish-speaking countries, individuals are given only one surname, that of their father.

Figure 12a. Screen shot of the “Jewish Cemeteries in Argentina” Portal Page highlighting the “Search for Buenos Aires Jewish Burial Records” one must select to look up surnames

Figure 12b. Screen shot of the “Burial Records in Argentina” Portal page where surname one is searching is entered

Figure 13a. Ernesto (Ernst) Sandler’s listing in the “Burial Records of Argentina” index showing he died on the 20th of October 1945 and is interred in “Tablada” (i.e., “Cementerio Israelita de la Tablada”), located in Buenos Aires, Argentina

Figure 13b. Teresa Pauly di Sandler (Therese Sandler née Pauly) listing in the “Burial Records of Argentina” index showing she died on the 25th of November 1969 and is interred in “Tablada” (i.e., “Cementerio Israelita de la Tablada”), located in Buenos Aires, Argentina

This post concludes my detailed examination of Josef and Rosalie Pauly’s nine children, although I likely will return to this branch of the family if or when I uncover more information about them.